A question for any and all readers of this blog who are same-sex-attracted: If you could, by a single act of the will, cease to be attracted to persons of your own gender, would you make that act of the will?
8 comments:
Anonymous
said...
The being attracted to people of the same gender is not the primary issue. Attractions aka temptations , thoughts and, feelings are not sins in and of themselves ... the important issue is what we choose to do with those attractions thoughts and feelings. The action - including choosing willfully to engage our mind - it is the deliberate informed act of the will which determines if the thoughts feelings and temptations will become sin. Having them happens - clinging to them is a choice. Would it be better not to have such attractions ( or any other temptations for that matter) ? Of course!
Unfortunately the truth is sometimes even when we very much want to give up our less than holy attractions some part of ourselves still clings to them.
Concupiscence is terribly hard to shake.
This is a weakness that helps us realize the power of God. I speak for myself here - I am not SSA but I like most folks have some persistent less than holy desires - I pray and pray and try this and that to get rid of them - yet traces linger. It is precisely in this awareness of my inability to shake my sinful desire that I come to see Christ loves me - a sinner. So in that respect I am grateful for them - yet at some point I must be willing to let Christ lift them from me - it is that or be forever separated from Him.
I guess what I'm saying is - it is not our act of the will that ultimately frees us - It is an act of Christ's will - what is required of us is freely consenting to His removing the concupiscence
An excellent read on this issue is CS LEWIS' The Great Divorce " One of the passengers, an oily man who has decided to leave and is headed back to the bus. Sitting on his shoulder is a little red lizard, twitching its tail like a whip and whispering things in his ear. The man turns his head to the reptile and snarls, "Shut up, I tell you!"
Just then one of Heaven's radiant angels sees the man. "Off so soon?" he calls.
"Well, yes," says the man. "I'd stay, you know, if it weren't for him," indicating the lizard. "I told him he'd have to be quiet if he came. His kind of stuff won't do here. But he won't stop. So I'll just have to go home."
"Would you like me to make him quiet?" asks the angel.
"Of course I would", says the man.
"Then I will kill him," says the angel, stepping forward.
The man panics at the thought of permanently losing the lizard and the sweet fantasies the creature whispers in his ear. But he is tired of carrying him around. He dithers back and forth between the two choices. Solemnly, the angel reminds him he cannot kill the lizard without his consent. And yes, it will be painful for the man; the angel refuses to soften the truth. Finally, in anguish, the man gives his consent, then screams in agony as the angel's burning hands close around the lizard and crush it.
"Ow! That's done for me," gasps the man, reeling back.
But then, gradually but unmistakably, the man begins to be transformed. Bright and strong he grows, into the shape of an immense man, not much smaller than the angel. And even more surprisingly, something is happening to the lizard, too. He grows, rippling with swells of flesh and muscle, until standing beside the man is a great white stallion with mane and tail of gold.
The new man turns from the horse, flings himself at the feet of the Burning One, and embraces them. When he rises, his face shines with tears. Then in joyous haste the young man leaps upon the horse's back. Turning in his seat he waves a farewell. And then they are off across the green plain, and soon among the foothills of the mountains. Like a star, they wind up, scaling what seem to be impossible steeps, till near the dim brow of the landscape, they vanish, bright themselves, into the rose brightness of that everlasting morning."
As long as we live in this world, we cannot be without temptations and tribulations. Hence it is written in Job "man's life on earth is a temptation." Everyone therefore should be solicitous about his temptations and watch in prayer lest the devil find an opportunity to catch him: he who never sleeps, but goes about, seeking whom he can devour. No one is so perfect and holy as sometimes not to have temptations and we can never be wholly free from them. Nevertheless, temptations are very profitable to man, troublesome and grievous though they may be, for in them a man is humbled, purified and instructed. All the Saints passed through many tribulations and temptations and were purified by them. And they that could not support temptations became reprobate and fell away.
Many seek to flee temptations, and fall worse into them. We cannot conquer by flight alone, but by patience and true humility we become stronger than all our enemies. He who only declines them outwardly, and does not pluck out their root, will profit little; nay, temptations will sooner return and he will find himself in a worse condition. By degrees and by patience you will, by God's grace, better overcome them than by harshness and your own importunity. Take counsel the oftener in temptation, and do not deal harshly with one who is tempted; but pour in consolation, as you would wish to be done unto yourself. Inconstancy of mind and little confidence in God is the beginning of all temptations. For as a ship without a helm is driven to and fro by the waves, so the man who neglects and gives up his resolutions is tempted in many ways.
I already tried that act of will. It does not work. One is as they are born. What we do with it is up to us. I do believe that people simply do not understand that fact that gay is gay by birth. There is a great difference between gay by birth, and those who dally in every sexual possibility. For those gay by birth, there is nothing but rejection. I pose a question: Can you by an act of will become gay?
I state all the above with respect, for I know how hard it is for heterosexual people to understand, but there is in God room for all. I have chosen celibacy for it was granted as a grace, and that is a very important distinction -- a grace. What I pray for is more compassion from those who believe that all homosexual persons are homosexual by choice. If you do believe that, then please tell me when you made your choice to be heterosexual? You can't, because your sexuality is part of your condition at birth.
If you disagree with me, that is fine, and I accept that, but remember "hate the sin but love the sinner" really is not an adequate response. What it says to all homosexual people is "we hate one half of you."
Thank you, Timothy for allowing this space to express my considered feelings on the subject. I had two nervous breakdowns because I could not make this change, even when I prayed.
Every passion begins with a sinful thought: “No cloud is formed without a breath of wind; and no passion is born without a thought.”11 The fall of Eve is interpreted by St Philaret of Moscow in terms of the acceptance of a thought and its gradual transformation into passion. “...When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.”12 “Saw” is an assault of a thought; “was good” and “was a delight” are a converse and struggle with the thought; “was to be desired” is an acceptance of the thought, Eve’s being captivated by it; “took and ate” is passion, when the thought is actualized and put into practice. “A sinful disposition of the soul,” St Philaret says, “begins with the powers of the intellect being oriented in a wrong direction...The multiplicity of one’s own desires, which are not centred around the will of God, is connected with one’s deviation from the oneness of the divine truth into a multiplicity of one’s own thoughts.”13 In other words, distraction is deviation from primordial simplicity and the state of unification into multiplicity and complexity. Distraction is a consequence of the Fall. The mind’s acceptance of the sinful thoughts is an illness and a sin of the mind, a “mental adultery” of the intellect.
I see this question wasn't really a question it was more of an introduction to a platform.
People are not born gay. They may be predisposed to same sex attractions but to be gay is an act of the will having to do with sexual preference and desire to love and be loved by others...to "be gay" is to choose an action and children at birth are not gay - they are children. PERIOD
To answer your question. Yes, one can by an act of the will choose to be gay ...and by the act of the will they can choose not to act on ssa
I am married to a man who's primary sexual attraction is for other men. He is genuinely attracted to me - because he chooses to love me - he will say he doesn't fully understand why he is attracted to me and not to other women but he is. He has never acted on his same sex attraction - he has come to terms with the fact that he is gay - yet he very consciously decided to be heterosexual - trying to tell him ( as many in the gay community do ) that he is not really gay ( as if they know what his heart and body desires better than he does )or that this is an act of self hate ( it's not - he loves himself and because of that has chosen not to live a life of sin ) - hating him because he's not gay enough is just as wrong and hurtful as people who would hate him because he's sexually and emotionally attracted to other men.
People - on both sides are constantly trying to define him to justify their own selves.
But to answer your question yes he is gay and yes he has chosen to be heterosexual - very successfully ...we've been married 20 + years - have a bunch of kids - and he has never cheated on me with a man or a woman ... does he struggle with SSA yes - but does he allow it to define who he is - no. And he is very emotionally and mentally happy and healthy. So it is possible
to address something else you said .. YES!! There is room in God for everyone
but that is not a justification to cling to sin.
Even if I were to agree with you that people are born gay ( which I don't because they aren't ) that doesn't mean it isn't a sin and they don't have a choice...all humans are born with concupiscence - we all are born with original sin - and we must all choose to abandoned that sin.
Regarding your nervous breakdowns ... because you could not change this even when you prayed ... your response shows you did not really read or reflect on my posts - I expressly state that we can not by an act of our will pray such attractions away - only Christ can remove them - and the truth is he most likely won't until the next world.
The nervous break downs and such come from too much focus on the self .. I am glad God has given you the grace of celibacy. It is a beautiful grace - use it to focus on him
Imagine for a second a huge hill .. at the bottom of that hill is this SSA ( or any other sin ) - but gravity keeps pulling you towards it ...at the top of the hill is Christ to get to him you have to climb a steep hill against gravity. If on this hill you are turned facing the bottom - how much easier is it for gravity to pull you down away from Christ ..
Inclination ( as in a slope with gravitational pull ) is concupiscence - it is this part that you think you were born with We can not always control inclination. Some of us ( for whatever reason ) God has allowed to have steep struggles
Orientation on the other hand means which direction you are facing - if you identify yourself as Gay you are orienting yourself towards your sexuality - and that's where you will always end up.
If on the other hand you identify yourself in Christ ... and you are always oriented towards Christ ... no matter how steep that inclination is you will eventually end up at Christ .
The problem is so many people think "but I am oriented to Christ" when they are only sort of facing that direction. If you are facing God but ever so slightly off center - if you continue to follow that line - eventually you will end up at a point far from from him. It only takes a slight deviation to miss the mark.
Anyway Stephan - thanks for sharing your perspective - may God Bless you and protect you now and for ever
A vibrant conversation isn't what I was looking for. My question is really as simple as I stated it: if a simple act of the will is all that was required for same-sex-attraction to cease, would you make that act of the will?
Let me state the question differently: assuming a red and blue pill is placed before you, the red causes you to no longer experience same sex attraction and the blue pill make you forget that you were ever even given the choice, how many would take the blue pill?
8 comments:
The being attracted to people of the same gender is not the primary issue. Attractions aka temptations , thoughts and, feelings are not sins in and of themselves ... the important issue is what we choose to do with those attractions thoughts and feelings. The action - including choosing willfully to engage our mind - it is the deliberate informed act of the will which determines if the thoughts feelings and temptations will become sin. Having them happens - clinging to them is a choice. Would it be better not to have such attractions ( or any other temptations for that matter) ? Of course!
Unfortunately the truth is sometimes even when we very much want to give up our less than holy attractions some part of ourselves still clings to them.
Concupiscence is terribly hard to shake.
This is a weakness that helps us realize the power of God. I speak for myself here - I am not SSA but I like most folks have some persistent less than holy desires - I pray and pray and try this and that to get rid of them - yet traces linger. It is precisely in this awareness of my inability to shake my sinful desire that I come to see Christ loves me - a sinner. So in that respect I am grateful for them - yet at some point I must be willing to let Christ lift them from me - it is that or be forever separated from Him.
I guess what I'm saying is - it is not our act of the will that ultimately frees us - It is an act of Christ's will - what is required of us is freely consenting to His removing the concupiscence
An excellent read on this issue is CS LEWIS' The Great Divorce " One of the passengers, an oily man who has decided to leave and is headed back to the bus. Sitting on his shoulder is a little red lizard, twitching its tail like a whip and whispering things in his ear. The man turns his head to the reptile and snarls, "Shut up, I tell you!"
Just then one of Heaven's radiant angels sees the man. "Off so soon?" he calls.
"Well, yes," says the man. "I'd stay, you know, if it weren't for him," indicating the lizard. "I told him he'd have to be quiet if he came. His kind of stuff won't do here. But he won't stop. So I'll just have to go home."
"Would you like me to make him quiet?" asks the angel.
"Of course I would", says the man.
"Then I will kill him," says the angel, stepping forward.
The man panics at the thought of permanently losing the lizard and the sweet fantasies the creature whispers in his ear. But he is tired of carrying him around. He dithers back and forth between the two choices. Solemnly, the angel reminds him he cannot kill the lizard without his consent. And yes, it will be painful for the man; the angel refuses to soften the truth. Finally, in anguish, the man gives his consent, then screams in agony as the angel's burning hands close around the lizard and crush it.
"Ow! That's done for me," gasps the man, reeling back.
But then, gradually but unmistakably, the man begins to be transformed. Bright and strong he grows, into the shape of an immense man, not much smaller than the angel. And even more surprisingly, something is happening to the lizard, too. He grows, rippling with swells of flesh and muscle, until standing beside the man is a great white stallion with mane and tail of gold.
The new man turns from the horse, flings himself at the feet of the Burning One, and embraces them. When he rises, his face shines with tears. Then in joyous haste the young man leaps upon the horse's back. Turning in his seat he waves a farewell. And then they are off across the green plain, and soon among the foothills of the mountains. Like a star, they wind up, scaling what seem to be impossible steeps, till near the dim brow of the landscape, they vanish, bright themselves, into the rose brightness of that everlasting morning."
Imitation of Christ: Book 1, Chapter 13
Of resisting temptations
As long as we live in this world, we cannot be without temptations and tribulations. Hence it is written in Job "man's life on earth is a temptation." Everyone therefore should be solicitous about his temptations and watch in prayer lest the devil find an opportunity to catch him: he who never sleeps, but goes about, seeking whom he can devour. No one is so perfect and holy as sometimes not to have temptations and we can never be wholly free from them. Nevertheless, temptations are very profitable to man, troublesome and grievous though they may be, for in them a man is humbled, purified and instructed. All the Saints passed through many tribulations and temptations and were purified by them. And they that could not support temptations became reprobate and fell away.
Many seek to flee temptations, and fall worse into them. We cannot conquer by flight alone, but by patience and true humility we become stronger than all our enemies. He who only declines them outwardly, and does not pluck out their root, will profit little; nay, temptations will sooner return and he will find himself in a worse condition. By degrees and by patience you will, by God's grace, better overcome them than by harshness and your own importunity. Take counsel the oftener in temptation, and do not deal harshly with one who is tempted; but pour in consolation, as you would wish to be done unto yourself. Inconstancy of mind and little confidence in God is the beginning of all temptations. For as a ship without a helm is driven to and fro by the waves, so the man who neglects and gives up his resolutions is tempted in many ways.
I already tried that act of will. It does not work. One is as they are born. What we do with it is up to us. I do believe that people simply do not understand that fact that gay is gay by birth. There is a great difference between gay by birth, and those who dally in every sexual possibility. For those gay by birth, there is nothing but rejection. I pose a question: Can you by an act of will become gay?
I state all the above with respect, for I know how hard it is for heterosexual people to understand, but there is in God room for all. I have chosen celibacy for it was granted as a grace, and that is a very important distinction -- a grace. What I pray for is more compassion from those who believe that all homosexual persons are homosexual by choice. If you do believe that, then please tell me when you made your choice to be heterosexual? You can't, because your sexuality is part of your condition at birth.
If you disagree with me, that is fine, and I accept that, but remember "hate the sin but love the sinner" really is not an adequate response. What it says to all homosexual people is "we hate one half of you."
Thank you, Timothy for allowing this space to express my considered feelings on the subject. I had two nervous breakdowns because I could not make this change, even when I prayed.
Every passion begins with a sinful thought: “No cloud is formed without a breath of wind; and no passion is born without a thought.”11 The fall of Eve is interpreted by St Philaret of Moscow in terms of the acceptance of a thought and its gradual transformation into passion. “...When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.”12 “Saw” is an assault of a thought; “was good” and “was a delight” are a converse and struggle with the thought; “was to be desired” is an acceptance of the thought, Eve’s being captivated by it; “took and ate” is passion, when the thought is actualized and put into practice. “A sinful disposition of the soul,” St Philaret says, “begins with the powers of the intellect being oriented in a wrong direction...The multiplicity of one’s own desires, which are not centred around the will of God, is connected with one’s deviation from the oneness of the divine truth into a multiplicity of one’s own thoughts.”13 In other words, distraction is deviation from primordial simplicity and the state of unification into multiplicity and complexity. Distraction is a consequence of the Fall. The mind’s acceptance of the sinful thoughts is an illness and a sin of the mind, a “mental adultery” of the intellect.
I see this question wasn't really a question it was more of an introduction to a platform.
People are not born gay. They may be predisposed to same sex attractions but to be gay is an act of the will having to do with sexual preference and desire to love and be loved by others...to "be gay" is to choose an action and children at birth are not gay - they are children. PERIOD
To answer your question. Yes, one can by an act of the will choose to be gay ...and by the act of the will they can choose not to act on ssa
I am married to a man who's primary sexual attraction is for other men. He is genuinely attracted to me - because he chooses to love me - he will say he doesn't fully understand why he is attracted to me and not to other women but he is. He has never acted on his same sex attraction - he has come to terms with the fact that he is gay - yet he very consciously decided to be heterosexual - trying to tell him ( as many in the gay community do ) that he is not really gay ( as if they know what his heart and body desires better than he does )or that this is an act of self hate ( it's not - he loves himself and because of that has chosen not to live a life of sin ) - hating him because he's not gay enough is just as wrong and hurtful as people who would hate him because he's sexually and emotionally attracted to other men.
People - on both sides are constantly trying to define him to justify their own selves.
But to answer your question yes he is gay and yes he has chosen to be heterosexual - very successfully ...we've been married 20 + years - have a bunch of kids - and he has never cheated on me with a man or a woman ... does he struggle with SSA yes - but does he allow it to define who he is - no. And he is very emotionally and mentally happy and healthy. So it is possible
...
to address something else you said .. YES!! There is room in God for everyone
but that is not a justification to cling to sin.
Even if I were to agree with you that people are born gay ( which I don't because they aren't ) that doesn't mean it isn't a sin and they don't have a choice...all humans are born with concupiscence - we all are born with original sin - and we must all choose to abandoned that sin.
Regarding your nervous breakdowns ... because you could not change this even when you prayed ... your response shows you did not really read or reflect on my posts - I expressly state that we can not by an act of our will pray such attractions away - only Christ can remove them - and the truth is he most likely won't until the next world.
The nervous break downs and such come from too much focus on the self .. I am glad God has given you the grace of celibacy. It is a beautiful grace - use it to focus on him
Imagine for a second a huge hill .. at the bottom of that hill is this SSA ( or any other sin ) - but gravity keeps pulling you towards it ...at the top of the hill is Christ to get to him you have to climb a steep hill against gravity. If on this hill you are turned facing the bottom - how much easier is it for gravity to pull you down away from Christ ..
Inclination ( as in a slope with gravitational pull ) is concupiscence - it is this part that you think you were born with
We can not always control inclination. Some of us ( for whatever reason ) God has allowed to have steep struggles
Orientation on the other hand means which direction you are facing - if you identify yourself as Gay you are orienting yourself towards your sexuality - and that's where you will always end up.
If on the other hand you identify yourself in Christ ... and you are always oriented towards Christ ... no matter how steep that inclination is you will eventually end up at Christ .
The problem is so many people think "but I am oriented to Christ"
when they are only sort of facing that direction. If you are facing God but ever so slightly off center - if you continue to follow that line - eventually you will end up at a point far from from him. It only takes a slight deviation to miss the mark.
Anyway Stephan - thanks for sharing your perspective - may God Bless you and protect you now and for ever
I will let the C.Anon make commentary. I ask that those who post Anonymously... choose some distinctive pseudonym to help with clarity.
A vibrant conversation isn't what I was looking for. My question is really as simple as I stated it: if a simple act of the will is all that was required for same-sex-attraction to cease, would you make that act of the will?
Let me state the question differently: assuming a red and blue pill is placed before you, the red causes you to no longer experience same sex attraction and the blue pill make you forget that you were ever even given the choice, how many would take the blue pill?
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